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02 March 2010 @ 11:16 am
DISCUSSION TIMES  
LET'S DISCUSS BUFFYVERSE CONTRADICTIONS/CONTROVERSY/FANON.

EXAMPLES:

- SPIKE'S SOUL
- WILLOW'S SEXUALITY
- "VAMPIRES DON'T BREATHE" AND OTHER VAMPIRE BODILY FUNCTION CONUNDRUMS
- ANGEL "LOSES" HIS SOUL BY TAKING A HAPPY PILL, BUT ONCE THE PILL WEARS OFF, HE "GETS HIS SOUL BACK" (??? DID ANYONE EVER THINK THAT EPISODE MADE SENSE?)
- JOYCE'S DEATH AND ITS RELATION (AND/OR LACK THEREOF) TO DAWN

IF YOU HAVE MORE TO ADD TO THE LIST, FEEL FREE TO ADD IN THE COMMENTS. I THINK THE ONES I LISTED ARE WELL-KNOWN ENOUGH THAT I DON'T NEED TO EXPLAIN, BUT

REMEMBER, THIS IS NOT TO DISCUSS WHAT IS AND WHAT IS NOT CANON, BUT WHAT MAKES SENSE.

CONTRADICTIONS AND CONTROVERSY: CANON IS VERY CLEAR ON THESE MATTERS WITH WHAT IT REPEATS OVER AND OVER, BUT NOT ALWAYS WITH WHAT MAKES SENSE IN THE CONTEXT OF THE 'VERSE ITSELF. THIS POST IS NOT REALLY FOR DISCUSSION OF "GOOFS", ("OOPS, I FORGOT WARREN WAS DEAD AND BROUGHT HIM BACK IN THE COMICS") BUT PLOT POINTS/CANON THAT CONTRADICT WHAT MAKES SENSE.

FANON: COMMONLY HELD FAN BELIEFS THAT CONTRADICT CANON, OR FILL IN PARTS THAT CANON DIDN'T TOUCH UPON.

DISCUSS!
 
 
 
Dozer, who hates pantsorimornie on March 2nd, 2010 07:34 pm (UTC)
WHAT'S CONFUSING/CONTRADICTING/CONTROVERSIAL ABOUT WILLOW'S SEXUALITY?
Let Me Walk, Before Theymakemerun on March 2nd, 2010 07:38 pm (UTC)
IF SHE'S A LESBIAN, WAS SHE REALLY IN LOVE WITH OZ?

ETC.
Dozer, who hates pantsorimornie on March 2nd, 2010 07:42 pm (UTC)
AH. IMO, SHE WASN'T REALLY IN LOVE WITH OZ. LESBIANINITY WASN'T IN HER FRAME OF REFERENCE IN HIGH SCHOOL AND OZ WAS REALLY SORT OF THE ONLY GUY THAT EVER PAID ATTENTION TO HER SO IT WOULD MAKE SENSE THAT SHE COULD CONFUSE THOSE FEELINGS AND GO FOR WHAT SHE WAS "SUPPOSED TO" WANT (I.E., A RELATIONSHIP WITH A BOY). A LOT OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP WAS HER DOING WHAT SHE THOUGHT SHE WAS SUPPOSED TO (THAT WHOLE PART WHERE SHE WAS GOING TO HAVE SEX WITH OZ AND SHE HAD THE CANDLES AND THE CD AND STUFF I CAN'T REMEMBER WHICH EP IT WAS IN) AND THEY WERE TOGETHER FOR SO LONG THAT SHE COULD'VE CONVINCED HERSELF THAT IT WAS WHAT SHE WANTED, JUST BECAUSE SHE HAD NO OTHER OPTION, YOU KNOW?

DISCUSS AMONGST YOURSELVES LOL.
Let Me Walk, Before Theymakemerun on March 2nd, 2010 07:53 pm (UTC)
I TEND TO DISAGREE. I UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM, BUT I JUST REWATCHED THOSE EPISODES, AND TO ME, IT SEEMED LIKE SHE REALLY WAS IN LOVE WITH HIM. WHILE SHE WAS AWKWARD BECAUSE SHE NEVER HAD A RELATIONSHIP BEFORE, I DON'T THINK THAT THE FEELINGS WERE NOT REAL.

I THINK THAT THE FACT THAT WILLOW WAS THEN CONSIDERED A LESBIAN WHEN SHE FELL IN LOVE WITH TARA WAS BECAUSE IT WAS WRITTEN IN THE LATE NINETIES, AND BISEXUALITY WASN'T CONSIDERED "REAL" THEN.
Dozer, who hates pantsorimornie on March 2nd, 2010 07:56 pm (UTC)
BUT CONSIDER HER OTHER RELATIONSHIPS. AFTER TARA, SHE DIDN'T FIND A BOYFRIEND, YOU KNOW? I'D'VE BOUGHT BISEXUALITY OR PANSEXUALITY OR WHATEVER THAT ONE WHERE YOU FALL FOR THE PERSON NOT THE SEX, IF SHE'D BEEN WITH A GUY AFTER BUT SHE ENDED UP WITH KENNEDY (WHOLE OTHER KETTLE OF FISH THERE LOL) AND THERE WAS ALSO THAT FLIRTAGE WITH FRED IN THE ANGEL CROSSOVER.
Let Me Walk, Before Theymakemerun on March 2nd, 2010 07:58 pm (UTC)
RIGHT, BUT AGAIN, THAT STILL WORKS WITH THE "BISEXUALITY WASN'T REAL" THEORY. THEY DIDN'T WANT TO BE HYPOCRITICAL BY HAVING HER ATTRACTED TO MEN AFTERWARD, BECAUSE SHE WAS A LESBIAN. BUT BEFORE, SHE WAS OBVIOUSLY ATTRACTED TO AT LEAST XANDER AND OZ.
Let Me Walk, Before Theymakemerun on March 2nd, 2010 07:58 pm (UTC)
OH AND GILES. OH MAN, I FORGOT HOW MUCH LULZ THAT WHOLE CRUSH WAS.
Dozer, who hates pantsorimornie on March 2nd, 2010 08:00 pm (UTC)
PSH GILES. EVERYONE'S ATTRACTED TO GILES. I'M A LESBIAN AND I'M ATTRACTED TO GILES LOL.

XANDER I'D ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT A LOT OF THAT WAS THEM BEING SOOOO OMG CLOSE AND HER MISTAKING HER FRIENDSHIP!LOVE FEELINGS FOR SEXYTIEMS!LOVE FEELINGS. ALSO, WILLOW AND TARA WERE THE FIRST LESBIAN RELATIONSHIP ON REAL TV (Y/N?) I'M NOT SURE IF JOSS WOULD'VE SHIED AWAY FROM MAKING HER BI IF HE THOUGHT SHE WAS?
Let Me Walk, Before Theymakemerun on March 2nd, 2010 08:04 pm (UTC)
IDK ONE WAY OR ANOTHER ABOUT JOSS.

THE FIRST LESBIAN COUPLE ON TELEVISION WAS A LITTLE MORE THAN TEN YEARS EARLIER, AND THERE WAS ACTUALLY A LESBIAN WEDDING ON FRIENDS BEFORE THAT, AND I KNOW ELLEN CAME OUT BEFORE WILLOW/TARA, BUT I CAN'T REMEMBER IF SHE WAS ACTUALLY IN A RELATIONSHIP ON THE SHOW (I HAVEN'T SEEN THAT SHOW IN FOREEEEVER). BUT I GET WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

IDK.
Dozer, who hates pantsorimornie on March 2nd, 2010 08:51 pm (UTC)
IDK IT'S JUST WHAT I ALWAYS THOUGHT COS I SORT OF IDENTIFIED WITH HER? LIKE I "LIKED" BOYS IN HIGH SCHOOL. BUT IT WASN'T TIL COLLEGE WHEN I HOOKED UP WITH MY FIRST GIRLFRIEND THAT I REALISED I TOTALLY DIDN'T REALLY LIKE THEM, KWIM? IT'S A ~CONFLICTING THOUGHT PROCESS~
Let Me Walk, Before Theymakemerun on March 2nd, 2010 08:55 pm (UTC)
THAT TOTALLY MAKES SENSE. I'M NOT SAYING IT'S NOT POSSIBLE TO "LIKE" BOYS IN HIGHSCHOOL, BUT THEN REALIZE THAT IT WAS A DIFFERENT FEELING PROCESS THAN WAS UNDERSTOOD AT THE TIME.

FOR THE CHARACTER, THOUGH, I THINK SHE WAS DEFINITELY WRITTEN AS BEING IN LOVE WITH OZ, AND THEN THAT WAS RETCONNED, WHICH IS WHERE THE CONFLICT IS FOR ME.
☠Ravy Ravミ☆: Tifa: Huh?raventsukino on March 2nd, 2010 11:10 pm (UTC)
"PSH GILES. EVERYONE'S ATTRACTED TO GILES."

TRUTH MY DEAR FRIEND! TRUTH!

Edited at 2010-03-02 11:11 pm (UTC)
softestbullet [dreamwidth.org] on March 3rd, 2010 04:22 am (UTC)
I DUNNO, I BASICALLY THINK SHE IS WHATEVER SHE SAYS SHE IS. AND SHE SAYS SHE IS A LESBIAN. MAYBE SHE'S A 4 OR 5 ON THE KINSEY SCALE? I MEAN, I AM BISEXUAL, SO I WOULD LIKE TO THINK OF HER AS BI, BUT I ALSO KNOW RL LESBIANS WHO HAD NICE, LOVING RELATIONSHIPS WITH BOYS, AND EVEN HAD SEX WITH THEM, BUT ONCE THEY GOT WITH WOMEN, THEY REALIZED THEY GOT WAY MORE OUT OF RELATIONSHIPS WITH WOMEN. SO IDK.

ALSO SOME PEOPLE'S SEXUALITIES CHANGE AND STUFF. MAYBE SHE HAS TOTALLY LOST INTEREST IN DUDES.

(OF COURSE WHO KNOWS WHY JOSS WHEDON WROTE IT THIS WAY!)
justin bieberhey_lamppost on March 2nd, 2010 10:13 pm (UTC)
HOW DO VAMPIRES HAVE SEX IS WHAT I WANT TO KNOW
Dozer, who hates pantsorimornie on March 2nd, 2010 10:17 pm (UTC)
I AGREE: HOW DO THEY GET BONERS HOW
justin bieberhey_lamppost on March 2nd, 2010 10:20 pm (UTC)
LIKE MAYBE THE BLOOD FROM THEIR ~VICTIMS~???????? BUT IDGI

DO THEY DIGEST THE BLOOD? DO THEY PEE IT OUT? BUT THEN HOW DO THEY BLEED IF YOU CUT THEM AND HOW DO THEY GET BONERS

WHERE DOES IT GO, BECAUSE THEY NEED MORE SO IT MUST GO SOMEWHERE.
Dozer, who hates pantsorimornie on March 2nd, 2010 10:22 pm (UTC)
THAT WOULD SUCK (LOL PUN) BECAUSE YOU GET BITTEN AND DRAINED BY A VAMP AND THEN HE USES YOUR BLOOD TO SEX IT UP?
justin bieberhey_lamppost on March 2nd, 2010 10:27 pm (UTC)
MAYBE IT'S LIKE VIAGRA OMG
Dozer, who hates pantsorimornie on March 2nd, 2010 11:41 pm (UTC)
I JUST ASKED MY FRIEND THIS QUESTION AND SHE SAID (FORGIVE THE LACK OF CAPS):

RAVEN: I also wondered how they had boners to
RAVEN: I thought magical hardons but what would they need those for? It's not like they can reproduce so they wouldn't have any natural magic for one
RAVEN: I mean yeah I guess they can pick up a potion from some demonic sex pit
RAVEN: but why would Angel do that if he wasn't supposed to be bumpin' uglies?
RAVEN: and all those women Angelus supposedly raped.
RAVEN: HOW?!
RAVEN: he can't get it up dammit. In reality it would be the most pathetic rape attempt in history. He's just be slapping the girl around with his flaccid man meat while screaming "WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?!" in an Irish accent
RAVEN: actually that is pretty horrifying...
racheltngracheltng on March 3rd, 2010 12:31 am (UTC)
THERE'S SO MUCH EWWW FOR THAT POST. BUT ANYWAY, WHAT GOOD ARE VAMPIRES IF THEY CAN'T GET ERECTIONS? THE WHOLE POINT IS THAT THEY'RE HYPERSEXUAL, I.E. THEY MUST HAVE SUPER-HARDONS (THE GUYS AT LEAST. NOT THE SIZE- JUST THE HARDNESS). I THINK IT MAKES SENSE BECAUSE THEY'VE GOT BLOOD IN THEIR VEINS. HOW IT GETS THERE WITHOUT A HEARTBEAT, WHO CARES?

THE TRUE BLOOD PEOPLE ON THE HBO BB HAD A REALLY LONG DISCUSSION ABOUT WHETHER FEMALE VAMPIRES CAN LUBRICATE. NOW THAT I DON'T THINK MAKES SENSE. I MEAN, THEY'RE DEAD. I DON'T THINK VAMPIRES HAVE BODILY FUNCTIONS THAT DON'T INVOLVE BLOOD. AND THEY EITHER DON'T FEEL OR WOULDN'T CARE ABOUT THE PAIN OF DRY SEX.

BATHROOM ISSUES - AGAIN, DEAD. NOT HAVING TO GO TO THE BATHROOM SHOULD BE A PERK OF BEING A VAMPIRE. WHERE DOES THE BLOOD GO? I GUESS IT EVAPORATES.
Amy: Buffy ex-mummy handblack_n_bright on March 3rd, 2010 04:20 pm (UTC)
THE HORRIFYING SOLUTION HERE IS MAYBE THEY DO JUST USE BLOOD.

THEY'VE GOT ENOUGH BLOOD IN THEM (I ASSUME THEY DRINK BLOOD TO RE-FILL THEIR OWN SUPPLY, NOT JUST 'CAUSE IT TASTES SO DARN GOOD) TO BLEED WHEN CUT, SO THEY'VE GOT ENOUGH TO MAKE VAMPIRE BONERS.

AND IF YOU ACCEPT THE IDEA THAT THEY CRY BLOOD INSTEAD OF TEARS, I SUPPOSE THAT MEANS NAUGHTY SEX FLUIDS ARE ALSO REPLACED WITH BLOOD.

... NOW, GO FORTH AND IMAGINE BUFFY'S SURPRISE IF SHE EVER BLEW ANGEL. YOUR BRAIN BLEACH IS IN THE MAIL.
Let Me Walk, Before Theymakemerun on March 2nd, 2010 10:20 pm (UTC)
IAWTC. IT FALLS UNDER THE SAME "VAMPIRES DON'T BREATHE" ISSUE. IF THEY DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO USE A BODILY FUNCTION, HOW CAN THE PERFORM TASKS REQUIRING SAID FUNCTION?

NO HEART PUMPING, NO CIRCULATION, NO CIRCULATION, NO SEX. AND IT'S VERY CLEAR THAT THEY DON'T HAVE SOME SORT OF "MAGIC" CIRCULATION, BECAUSE BUFFY SPECIFICALLY SAYS "YOU DON'T HAVE ANY CIRCULATION" TO SPIKE IN THE EPISODE PANGS.

AND THEN OF COURSE, HOW DO VAMPIRES EAT WITHOUT A DIGESTIVE SYSTEM--OR DO THEY HAVE ONE? DO VAMPIRES PEE?

AND HOW DO VAMPIRES SMOKE IF THEY CAN'T BREATHE? (ANGEL SAID HE COULDN'T PERFORM CPR BECAUSE HE HAD NO BREATH, LIKE, TWO EPISODES AFTER HE BLEW OUT A CANDLE)
justin bieberhey_lamppost on March 2nd, 2010 10:22 pm (UTC)
MAYBE IT'S LIKE EATING FOOD. THEY CAN IF THEY WANT BUT THEY DON'T HAVE TO?

DIDN'T SPIKE GET ALL DROWN AND STUFF IN THE LAST SEASON OF BTVS TOO? HOW CAN HE DROWN IF HE CANT BREATHE
Let Me Walk, Before Theymakemerun on March 2nd, 2010 10:23 pm (UTC)
YEAH, THAT TOO!

I WAS LIKE "WAIT, THAT'S LIKE DUNKING SOMEONE UNDERWATER THAT IS WEARING A SNORKEL". I MEAN, IT WOULD BE VERY IRRITATING, BUT I'M NOT SURE ABOUT TORTURE.
softestbullet [dreamwidth.org] on March 3rd, 2010 04:31 am (UTC)
SDKJGLSKDG AND THAT WAS AFTER ANGEL SPENT A SUMMER AT THE BOTTOM OF THE OCEAN.

OK BUT I THINK IT'S LIKE, VAMPIRES DON'T NEED OXYGEN TO LIVE. BUT THEY NEED AIR IN THEIR LUNGS TO TALK AND STUFF. AND ALSO IT'S PROBABLY JUST AN INVOLUNTARY HABIT. SO IF YOU ARE A VAMPIRE WITH A BREATHING HABIT WHO GETS SUDDENLY SHOVED UNDERWATER, YOU WILL PROBABLY CHOKE AND COUGH AND IT WILL PROBABLY BE UNPLEASANT EVEN IF YOU DON'T ACTUALLY DROWN.

ALTERNATIVELY, I'VE SEEN THE THEORY THAT THAT WATER (THAT THE FIRST TORTURED SPIKE W/) WAS DILUTED HOLY WATER. OUCH!!
softestbullet [dreamwidth.org] on March 3rd, 2010 04:25 am (UTC)
WELL HOW TO VAMPIRES WALK AROUND AND BLINK AND STUFF? THE DEMON'S ENERGY!! SO BASICALLY: DEMON BONERS
Springheel Janespringheel_jane on March 2nd, 2010 10:57 pm (UTC)
I NEVER REALLY THOUGHT DAWN MADE SENSE AND I NEVER UNDERSTOOD WHY SHE GOT TO STICK AROUND.
racheltngracheltng on March 3rd, 2010 12:33 am (UTC)
BECAUSE I LIKED HER.
Springheel Janespringheel_jane on March 3rd, 2010 01:28 am (UTC)
YEAH
IT JUST SEEMED LIKE THEY KEPT HER BECAUSE EVERYONE LIKED HER

WELL I DIDNT OK????
racheltngracheltng on March 3rd, 2010 03:03 am (UTC)
ALSO BECAUSE BUFFY DIED INSTEAD, SO SHE COULD BE RIPPED OUT OF HEAVEN AND WE COULD HAVE A RAISON D'ETRE FOR SEASON 6.
softestbullet [dreamwidth.org] on March 3rd, 2010 04:32 am (UTC)
OKAY SERIOUSLY...

WHAT THE FUCK IS A SOUL?
Let Me Walk, Before Theymakemerun on March 3rd, 2010 04:35 am (UTC)
EXACTLY.

THE DEFINITION SEEMS TO CHANGE FROM SEASON ONE TO SEASON SEVEN, MOSTLY DUE TO THE SPIKE STORYLINE.
ruby tuesdayslinkhard on March 3rd, 2010 10:51 am (UTC)
(Anonymous) on March 3rd, 2010 03:53 pm (UTC)
I GET WHAT THEY'RE SAYING, BUT INSINUATING WILLOW HAD A THING FOR CORDELIA IS JUST STUPID. TENSION =/= SEXUAL TENSION.
racheltngracheltng on March 4th, 2010 01:48 am (UTC)
READ THE SIDEBAR. IT'S TONGUE-IN-CHEEK. AND VERY FUNNY.
Let Me Walk, Before Theymakemerun on March 4th, 2010 01:55 am (UTC)
OH LOL, I TOTALLY MISSED THE SIDEBAR. PHEW. IT SOUNDED LIKE A JOKE, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, SOUNDED A LOT LIKE SADLY SRS BIZNESS ARTICLES THAT PEOPLE HAVE LINKED ME TO IN THE PAST.
Let Me Walk, Before Theymakemerun on March 3rd, 2010 03:54 pm (UTC)
WHY IS IT NOT LOGGING ME IN.

I'VE HAD THAT PROBLEM ALL WEEK, UGH.